The Perpetual Choirs of Britain -The Triad Background

In the C17th and C18th AD, a number of antiquarians collected copies of old Welsh manuscripts.  Amongst these documents were versions of a triad (threesome) called the three Perpetual Choirs/Harmonies of Britain.  The earliest recorded perpetual choir triad we know of dates back to about 1604-07 - Thomas Wiliems of Trefriw: "Tri Dyfal Gyfangan oedh gynt yn amser y Brytannieit: Bangawr, a Chaer Gariadawc, ag Ynys Widrin." (Bromwich, TRIOEDD YNYS PRYDEIN, p.232, 2014 AD, Peniarth 228): Bangor, Caer Caradoc and Glastonbury (1):   https://dokumen.pub/trioedd-ynys-prydein-the-triads-of-the-island-of-britain-1783161450-9781783161454.html

Another early version can be seen in the LOG BOOK OF A VOYAGE AROUND SOUTH AFRICA, 1627.  From the same Robert Vaughan of Hengwrt collection as Peniarth 185,  it tells of the three sites: Ynys Afallark (the last two letters appearing to be rk rather than the expected ch), Caer Caradawc and Mangor (2):   ​https://viewer.library.wales/4838253#?c=&m=&s=&cv=65&manifest=https%3A%2F%2Fdamsssl.llgc.org.uk%2Fiiif%2F2.0%2F4838253%2Fmanifest.json&xywh=-301%2C416%2C3139%2C329

Note also the Glastonbury variation Afalla(rk-ch)/Widrin.  Apparently it stems from the John Jones transcript of the Wiliems text (Peniarth 216. Bromwich, op cit., p.233).  Note also that neither document indicates an actual site for Caer Caradoc.  And Bangor/Mangor?  Great college/circle/congregation, I read (footnote 8, c/o one William Owen Pughe, of whom more below (3)  https://elfinspell.com/NenniusMarkPreface2.html).  I call these versions Basic (B).  

Said John Jones (d. c.1653) appears to be the first to identify "Mangor" as Bangor Iscoed/on-Dee c/o "Bangawr vawr yn fford y Maelawr" (op. cit.).  This identification - and others similar - I term Elaborate (E), and these, possibly, add information about the triad sites: Maelawr (as above, relating to Bangor-on-Dee/Iscoed - search Maelor), Iscoed itself, and also the Salisbury/Old Sarum identification of the Caer Caradoc site by Edward Jones, Ellis, Iolo Morganwg and Barnes - all below.

Many of these perpetual choir documents were gathered together by Robert Vaughan of Hengwrt. A copy was made by William Morris, with his brother, Lewis, and his son-in-law, Evan Evans, having access, and this latter's copy becoming part of the Panton collection.  Moses Williams FRS of Shirburn (d. 1742) also had a version that named Widrin rather than Afallach.

The first published E version I could find (until very recently! See Note 1 below) - 1796 (Legrand's   FABLIAUX, Vol II, p. 265, trans. George Way and annotated by George Ellis FRS) - reads Ynys Afallach, (C)aer Caradawc and Mangor is y coed (4):  Fabliaux or tales, abridged from French manuscripts of the https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca › bitstream › fulltext PDF (comes as a fulltext download)

                                                                  "Tri dyfal gyfangan ynys Prydain .

                                                                       Un oedd yn ynys Afallach :                                                                             Yr ail y'nghaer Caradawc       

                                                                   Ar trydydd ym Mangor îs y coed

That is 

                                                        The three perpetual choirs of the island of Britain .

                                                                      One was in the isle of Avalon :

                                                             The second was at Caer Caradoc : ( Salisbury :)

                                                                      And the third at Bangor Iscoed ."

This Ellis identification of Caer Caradoc with Salisbury seems to rest on Geoffrey of Monmouth, HISTORIA REGUM BRITANNIAE, the contexts being Saxon treachery and Stonehenge, and this theme finds echo in Humphrey Lhuyd, 1527-1568 AD, who writes: "And following the shores of the sea, the Severians, now of Wylshry, whose city is Caerseveru , is called by others Caer Caradoc , but is now called Sarysbury by the English. Among these is Mount Ambrose, famous for the defeat of the nobles of Britain."

See item 20 (5) https://philological.cal.bham.ac.uk/llwyd/text.html

Note 1  This from Andrew Baker (17-02-2023) - and my thanks (full email Appendix 5):

Now this is an extended 1794 AD reissue of a book by the Welsh harper Edward Jones - Musical and Poetical Relicks of the Welsh Bards: Preserved, by Traditlon and Authentic Manuscripts, ... , to the Bardic Tunes are Added Variations for the Harp, Harpsichod. Violin, Or Flute (etc.) New Ed., p. 11 (6)

https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=1GltPNOww3kC&rdid=book-1GltPNOww3kC&rdot=1&pli=1

The three triad sites are identical to those in Ellis 2 years later: Glastonbury, Salisbury and Bangor-on-Dee/Iscoed.  But the 1794 Jones revision also carries quite extensive footnotes to points 5, 6 and 7 above.  This text is carried in full in Appendix 6 but can be summarised as Glastonbury (referencing Avalonia, Joseph of Arimathea, Philip the Apostle and apples), Salisbury (referencing Old Sarum, a King Sarron, Caer Caradoc and Aurelius Aurelianus, this latter said here to be the founder of the town and monastery of Ambresbury near Salisbury), and Bangor Iscoed (referencing its founding and development on the site of a pre-Christian temple).  I note that, on page 2, Edward Jones acknowledges an " ingenious friend" - Mr. William Owen (?Pughe), of whom more below..

There is nothing whatsoever that I've so far found in any version of the triads themselves (before the Edward Jones and Ellis identifications, above, albeit these possibly sharing a common source/origin), to support the idea that the supposed Salisbury Caer Caradoc of Geoffrey of Monmouth and Humphrey Lhuyd is the triads' Caer Caradoc.  There are plenty of other Caer Caradocs available elsewhere - and possibly much more plausible ones, too.  Whatever, my understanding re. the Edward Jones and Ellis Caer Caradoc/Salisbury is that it refers to Old Sarum (because our modern Salisbury is of early C13th AD origin but Geoffrey died circa 1153 AD).  The Ellis edition seems to be based on William Morris BL14873 (BL = British Library).

Acknowledgement - Dr. Rachel Bromwich, TRIOEDD YNYS PRYDEIN*

*See Appendix 3 - N1-4

GETTING TO THE POINT ...

The real question here - given all the above - is just how, exactly, did we all end up with John Michell's Stonehenge, Glastonbury and Llantwit Major threesome?

 

The Plot:

Basically, Iolo Morganwg (Edward Thomas) produced a new version the relevant triad in the "third series" of Y MYVYRIAN ARCHAIOLOGY, 1801 - abbrev. Y Myvyr. below - a co-editor being the antiquarian William Owen Pughe.  The triad now read, firstly, Caer Worgorn (aka Worgan), Llantwit Major, then, secondly, Choir Emrys (Ambrosius) at Caer Caradoc and, thirdly, Bangor Wydrin.  Iolo has "qualified" the Caer Caradoc site with Emrys/Ambrosius and chosen a Llanilltud Vawr/Llantwit Major identification (near where he lived) for the triads Bangor/Mangor, rather than accepting the Iscoed siting by John Jones.  His translator (1823), Willam Probert, possibly c/o William Owen Pughe, went one better:  Caer Caradoc was changed to "Ambresbury".  Now Probert maintained this was somehow compatible with the more traditional Choir sitings we've seen, but Iolo's own notes (published much later) show Iolo identified Caer Caradoc with Old Sarum, near Salisbury, as indicated below. His associate, Pughe, however, subsequently identified (near) Amesbury.  Note here Humphrey Lhuyd's "Mount Ambrose" reference.

Here are Y Myvyr. Triad 80 (B) and Y Myvyr. "third series" (E) Triad 84 (E) including notes from Aneurin Williams, an Iolo descendant.  Note the reference to Rachel Bromwich implicit in TYP 90:

 

The original (and in the second case, unannotated) texts can be found in Volume 2 of Y Myvyr. pp. 17, Triad 80, and p. 70, Triad 84 (7) - go to 37 and 90 on the toolbar:

https://www.library.wales/digital-exhibitions-space/digital-exhibitions/europeana-rise-of-literacy/expatriate-literature/the-myvyrian-archaiology-of-wales-collected-out-of-ancient-manuscripts#?c=&m=&s=&cv=89&xywh=-1137%2C-163%2C5026%2C4274

Next, compare Probert's translation (this 1823 version of Y Myvyr. "third series" Triad 84, it would seem, later being the basis for John's Michell's Circle of Perpetual Choirs revelation albeit with the substitution of Stonehenge for the Choir of Ambrosius in Ambresbury) (8):

84  The three perpetual choirs of the Isle of Britain: the choir of Llan Illtyd Vawr, Glamorganshire; the Choir of Ambrosius in Ambresbury; and the choir of Glastonbury. In each of these three choirs there were 2,400 saints; that is, there were a hundred for every hour of the day and the night in rotation, perpetuating the praise and service of God without rest or intermission.  https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Triads_of_Britain

Caer Caradoc has gone.  Instead we are given Ambresbury,  So we already have some contention about the 3 Choir sites.  The traditional threesome has challengers - but only c/o Iolo, his co-editor Pughe (as we shall see) and Probert so far, and only regarding the twosome Old Sarum/Ambresbury and Iscoed/Llantwit.  See appendix 3, N2 for a later challenger to Glastonbury in Burgh Island.

 

The Problem of Amesbury as Caer Caradoc

The first problem is "Ambresbury" - can it safely be taken to be Amesbury?

Robert Vermaat, Vortigern Studies, offers this: "That Geoffrey of Monmouth later confused Ambresbyrig (the fortress of Ambrosius) with Ambrius Mons (the hill of Ambrius) causes no wonder, for the Anglo-Saxon byrig can easily be confused with burgh. And a hillfort can be both 'fortress' (burgh) and 'hill' (byrg) at the same time! It is clear that both names can be about one and the same place: Amesbury and the surrounding area, but they could likewise point to Old Sarum (9)":  http://www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/artcit/caersalis.htm

Robert makes a very important point here: Caer Caradoc is an unqualified site in the triads -like Bangor/Mangor before John Jones - and, in this case, before Edward Jones, Ellis, Iolo and Pughe) and the Old Sarum siting depends on Geoffrey of Monmouth's HISTORIA REGUM BRITANNIAE "whose bodies St. Eldad afterwards gave Christian burial; not far from Kaercaradauc, now Salisbury, in a burying-place near the monastery of Ambrius" Chaper XV (10) https://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/text/geoffrey-of-monmouth-arthurian-passages-from-the-history-of-the-kings-of-britain  And this is as against Geoffrey's supposed (Iolo MS 45 etc.) contemporary,  Caradoc of Llancarfan, claim to place Caer Caradoc at Amesbury rather than Old Sarum.  And we also read, in Geoffrey's HISTORIA, of Uther Pendragon: "near the monastery of Ambrius and inside the Giants’ Ring" - so there is mention of Stonehenge (11)   https://faculty.arts.ubc.ca/sechard/hrb_amb.htm

But was there such a abbot and abbey?  Geoffrey talks of 300 monks - not the 2400 mentioned above. Thomas Malory, much much later, (12) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinevere - wrote of Guinevere's nunnery at Amesbury, a convent previously placed by Geoffrey at Caerleon.  I read: "It has been suggested that the place-name Amesbury in Wiltshire might preserve the name of Ambrosius and that perhaps Amesbury was the seat of his power base in the later fifth century (13)": ^[19 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosius_Aurelianus

One C15th AD document reads:“... monasterii Ambrosii Burgi ...". It was presented to the prioress and convent of Amesbury ... in 1508 (BL Add. 18632).  In the Domesday book, Amesbury was Amblesberie / Ambresberie.  An 880 AD Saxon Charter called it Ambresbyrig (see "fortress" above).  Opinion varies as to the derivation of the name (14):  https://blogs.surrey.ac.uk/medievalwomen/2017/02/15/chaucer-religious-controversies-and-womens-literary-culture/

Edwin Guest, ORIGINES CELTICAE, P 181-2, 1883, carrying the Y Myvy. "third series" triad, floats the idea that the Probert/Iolo Llanilltud Vawr was sourced from some posited South Wales MS which can't be found (because it probably never existed)  whereas other versions were allegedly North Welsh in origin.  He also cites Pughe and  C12th AD Caradoc of Llancarfan (Iolo MSS 45) as sources for identifying Amesbury as near Caer Caradoc.  Guest does acknowledge the existence of the B threesome, above, I note, and gives a sort of nod to the problem this creates (15):

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LFJAShEc8ykC&pg=PA182&lpg=PA182&dq=origines+celticae+%22probert%22&source=bl&ots=I-Eki32Kqo&sig=ACfU3U1zqvDOhF6G_NqA_axT-WOojLsVEQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjB-7Wgx474AhVtQkEAHSfOBlMQ6AF6BAgDEAM#v=onepage&q=origines%20celticae%20%22probert%22&f=false

Then there's "The HISTORIA BRITTONUM,  Commonly Attributed to Nennius, From a Manuscript Lately Discovered in the Library of the Vatican Palace at Rome, Edited in the Tenth Century by Mark the Hermit", 1819, trans. Rev. William Gunn.  Owen Pughe (again!) helped him, and seems to have provided the Caer Caradoc-Amesbury identification via "Owen MS" (?Pughe). We are told Caer Caratuac is  "Not to be found in Nennius. In the Triads, Caradawg. So many places commemorate the name Caractacus, that it is difficult to ascertain which is here meant. Caer Caradoc ,,, Owen (MS.) places it near Amesbury."  Gunn places it somewhere else - see the Cair list in the footnotes  - Caratuac, number 13 (16)  https://elfinspell.com/NenniusMark1.html

So 2 sources for Amesbury: Pughe/"Owen MS." and the Iolo MSS. 45/Caradoc of Llancarfan identification.  Firstly, "Owen MS." is a most vague attribution in what seems a most scholarly work, otherwise - and Iolo and Pughe hardly seem safe sources anyway.  However NLW (National Library of Wales) has supplied me with a reference to "Ambrosbury Hill ... also called Caer-Caradog in the district of Caersalawg", the scene of Saxon treachery (Taliesin Williams, IOLO MANUSCRIPTS, 1888, p. 423, with Salawg/Salog identified as Old Sarum, p. 513, below) (17) https://openlibrary.org/books/OL7080361M/Iolo_manuscripts.

NLW (in the email appendix 3, N12) cites Watkin Pywel (aka Giles - footnote 2, p. 417 ) of Pen-y-Vai MS transcript of Caradoc of Llancarfan as the source.  I note NLW uses the word "allegedly".  And then we also have the similar Geoffrey of Monmouth (or, of course, Henry of Blois - see appendix 3, N2)'s "Cloister of Ambrius" at "Mount Ambrius", "near Kaercaradoc, now Salisbury", noting Geoffrey/Henry does relate the Ambrius name to the founding abbot and thus not anyone else of similar name like, say, the Ambrosius of Edward Jones(18):

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Six_Old_English_Chronicles/Geoffrey%27s_British_History/Book_6  (item 191). 

Whilst Geoffrey/Henry expressly identifies Caer Caradoc (aka Caratacus/Caractacus (19):    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caratacus ) with Salisbury - "mistakenly", another site being proposed (20): http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/archaeology/mynydd.html - he's opened an Amesbury/Ambresbury "can of worms".  Not least since Stonehenge was supposedly magicked by Merlin Ambrosius/Emrys for another Ambrosius, Aurelius Ambrosius/Ambrosius Aurelianus - supposedly buried at Stonehenge (21):  https://blog.stonehenge-stone-circle.co.uk/tag/aurelius-ambrosius/

Some point to Vespasian's camp (so named by William Camden) for the Caer Caradoc site, just across the River Avon from Amesbury and near Stonehenge (22)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespasian%27s_Camp

See also Appendix 3, 10.

 

The Problem of Salog/Old Sarum

A table - appendix 3, 9 - details the "Old Sarum" site names' development, including the r becoming an l by 1150 AD.  Then there's the "Old".  It requires a "New", and Salisbury - as we know it - started to develop from 1220 AD on (receiving a charter in 1227, apparently, designating it New Sarum).  Old Sarum is some 2 miles away from New Sarum/Salisbury (which is irrelevant for our purposes) and about 10 miles south of Amesbury.

Here is Iolo Morganwg at creative work: 1888 document of Iolo, c/o son Taliesin, chopped a bit by me - see it all here, pp. 513 and 538 (23):

https://archive.org/details/iolomanuscriptss00willuoft/mode/2up?ref=ol&view=theater

And-did-those-feet?  There are legends of Joseph of Arimathea  et al on these shores.  Joseph, himself, is connected to Cornish tin and Glastonbury's thorn bush in legend.  Iolo Morganwg (!) identified him as Ilid.  There's a place called Llanilid in Glamorganshire: SS979814.

Of interest is the invention by Iolo of Sarllog (of Old Sarum and Garth Mathrin) and St. Eigen (sometimes, elsewhere, of Llanilid),  Eigen is also Eurgain, the Virgin Foundress of Glamorgan, to some: (24) https://celticsaints.org/2014/0630a.html

And the sources for "Salog" (aka Sarllog, Sallog and Sallwg)?  "Eigen is noted as the daughter of Caratacus in the History of Dunraven Manuscript, a manuscript giving the genealogy of Taliesin from the collection of Thomas Hopkin of Coychurch, one from the Havod Uchtryd collection and in an extract he claimed to have copied from the Long Book of Thomas Truman.^[2][3] This reference can also be found in the family records of Iestyn ab Gwrgant, where it is said of her: "She lived in the close of the first century, and was married to Sarllog, who was a lord of Caer Sarllog, or the present Old Sarum" (25).^[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Eigen

The numbered references above are detailed below:

 - (2) Iolo Morganwg; Owen Jones; Society for the Publication of Ancient Welsh Manuscripts, Abergavenny (1848) (26): Iolo manuscripts: A selection of ancient Welsh manuscripts, in prose and verse, from the collection made by the late Edward Williams, Iolo Morganwg, for the purpose of forming a continuation of the Myfyrian archaiology; and subsequently proposed as materials for a new history of Wales. W. Rees; sold by Longman and co., London. pp. 350

 - (3) Mabinogion (1849) (27): The Mabinogion, from the Llyfr coch o Hergest, and other ancient Welsh MSS., with an Engl. pp. 391– Just mentions Caradog son of Bran the Blessed son of Llyr.

 - (4) Anonymous (31 March 2004) (28): The Genealogy Of Iestyn The Son Of Gwrgan. Kessinger Publishing. pp. 513 –. ISBN 978-0-7661-8411-4. Written by ... Iolo  (op. cit 20/eigen)

So Iolo "sources" backing Iolo invention.  And this explains how I  actually thought that Salog was an alternative name for Old Sarum as a kid - a whole mythos built up about early (Celtic) Christianity in Britain.  But, whilst the Salog/Old Sarum identification is now somewhat traditional, where's the real evidence, other than the iffy Caradoc of Llancarfan citation?   Salog was not one of the actual Nennius cities in any version (some cite 33 cities to the 28 here) (29):  http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/articles/nenniuscities.html

David Nash Ford writes: "Caer-Sallog is traditionally said to be Salisbury, or rather the nearby hillfort of Old Sarum (Sorviodunum). According to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, King Cynric of Wessex fought against the Britons here (at Searoburh) in 552 and put them to flight. This would indicate the fort was occupied by the British until this time, and the find of a late Roman bronze bridle cheek-piece may reinforce this theory. The identification of the historical Caer-Sallog, as recorded in the Black Book of Caermarthen, with Salisbury is, however, problematic for it may derive from a mistranscription of Geoffrey of Monmouth's History of the Kings of Britain."

There is an entry in the Black Book of Carmarthen (circa 1250 AD) "Kaer Sallauc" (Sallawc) which has been conflated with Old Sarum - and may well be the source of Iolo's Sarllog. Here's Mary Jones with the relevant text - YR OIANAU (The Greetings), attrib. Merlin/Myrddin (but there are references to chain mail!).  See also LITERATURE OF THE KYMRY, Thomas Stephens p. 254. 1849, and Lewis Morris, C18th AD, CELTIC REMAINS, p.68 (30):  https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Literature_of_the_Kymry/3JBUAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Eidawc%22&pg=PA254&printsec=frontcover:

(31):  https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Celtic_Remains/LmQ2AAAAMAAJ?hl=en

Affanvont ve corforion meibon eidauc.
Y bit bore taer. rac kaer sallauc.

https://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/bbc18w.html

The original text (for these seafaring sons of eidauc) can be found here (p. 57) (32): https://www.library.wales/discover/digital-gallery/manuscripts/the-middle-ages/the-black-book-of-carmarthen#?c=&m=&s=&cv=&xywh=-580%2C0%2C3517%2C2990

I went looking and found this:

Bottom of the page - b 14-15g GE² 310, Trosedd Caer, myn y trisaint, / Sallawg, trŵn gorseddawg saint (Rhys Goch Eryri). Gw. hefyd trawsedd. trosedd. (cyhoeddwyd 2001) (33):  trosedd - Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru

Noting Eddawg saint, I found this (scroll down to p 130, 22 on the pdf toolbar): "IDDOG, ST.  According to Samuel Lewis, A Topographical Dictionary of Wales, 1845, Iddog was one of the three saints of Llantrisant, Meisgyn, Morgannwg, the other two being Dyfnog and Menw. But according to Browne Willis (Parochiale Anglicanum, 1733) the three saints were Gwynno, Illtud and Tyfodwg (PW 67 n.1). However, the latter three saints are those of three churches formerly under Llantrisant, namely, Llanwynno, Llanilltud Faerdre, and Ystradyfodwg." (34)  https://www.library.wales › casgliadau › 07_H-LL

A Genuki entry also mentions a monastery "said to have been ... dedicated to St. Cawrdav, son of Caradoc Vraichvras" (35): https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Llantrisant/Lewis1833

 

In the original Black Book of Carmarthen, I noticed that the sallauc-rhyming "eidauc" (seen above) has a funny "d".  It's bent to the left.  I'd been wondering how could Iddog could be Eidauc?  According to NLW - and my thanks! - "the 'd' represents modern 'dd' in the personal name". That's "th" in English - so he's really Eiddauc/Eddawg (pron. Eithawc/Ethawg to go with our St.Iddoc/g/Ithog, above), linked to Sallauc in the couplet above, to Sallawg in in the Geriadur entry above and to Llantrisant and Iddog c/o Samuel Lewis.

Note:  the long S - variously either of these two.  The Black Book of Carmarthen uses the first in sallauc. An "f" with the right cross stroke missing.

There are 2 places called Llantrisaint.  The other is on Anglesey.  This one is in Glamorgan. An Iron Age hillfort stands on Rhiwsaeson Hill - "the slope of the Saxons" (36):  https://www.llantrisant-cc.gov.wales/community-information/local history/#:~:text=The%20name%20Rhiwsaeson%20means%20%E2%80%9CSlope,the%20Danes%20and%20the%20Saxons. The enclosure is "now known as" Caerau Hillfort @ ST064831 (37)   https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Llantrisant (there's another at Caerau at Ely, Cardiff ST134750).

https://coflein.gov.uk/en/site/93037/archives/

 

It is extremely unlikely anyone will ever definitively identify a site for Sallawg, but I found more in just a few days supporting Llantrisant Caerau as the site than has ever been found for Old Sarum.  I would also like to thank Mary Jones, here,  for her help in unravelling (f)allauc-sallauc-sallawg where the seeming f in the original is actually a "long S". None of this conjecture, however, wipes away what seems to be the Salisbury Plain placement of "Salawg" by Caradoc of Llancarfan - if (and it's a very big IF!!!!) it actually was Caradoc of Llancarfan.  Remember "allegedly" (NLW). 

But then there's also (a possible) King Caradoc of Gwent (ref. 32 above) and his association with Sellack, SO537252 and a Cayr Cradok: TRANSACTIONS WOOLHOPE NATURALISTS' FIELD CLUB, p. 103 (but look for 59 on the pdf toolbar) (38) https://www.woolhopeclub.org.uk › transaction

And note another problem: we now have more than one Caradoc: (39) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caradoc 

 

Note: Caer Sallauc/Caer Salog is further explored below under TRANSACTIONS (Geoffrey of Monmouth's HISTORIA and the BRUT derivatives - the "earl lists").

 

The problem of Caer Caradoc

 

In a commentary on Nennius, HISTORIA BRITTONUM, 1919, Humprey Lhuyd, as seen above and from some 200 or so years earlier, is quoted by the editor, one Reverend William Gunn (op. cit. elfinspell), as identifying Caer Caradoc with "nunc vero - but now - Sarysby ap Anglis" (Salisbury/Old Sarum), and this c/o a Vatican document find of a Nennius HISTORIA BRITTONUM version edited by one Mark the Hermit, C10th AD, or (via "Owen MS."), with Amesbury.  He doubts both identifications.  We are told that Caer Caradoc ("Caratauc") does not appear in any other version of Nennius:  "Not to be found in Nennius. In the Triads, Caradawg."  I found it quite easily (40): http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/articles/nenniuscities.html

"Caer-Caratauc could be one of several hillforts of that name which still exist throughout the country, though it is probably to be identified with Cary Craddock in the parish of Sellack in Herefordshire. This hillfort is just within the Kingdom of Ergyng, and is said to have been the palace of King Caradog Freichfras of Gwent." 

So we have a Caer Caratauc, a Sellack and what looks like the same King Caradog as at Llantrisant to compare/match to Caer Caradoc/Salog?  There's a phonic similarity of Sellack and Salog.  Yes, but no St. Iddog to satisfy the BLACK BOOK couplet.  Sellack/Suluc derives from St. Tysilio/Suliau (41): https://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Sellack

And there are other Nennius translations.  This is J. A. Giles, 2013 (updated): a North Yorkshire site, "13. Cair caratauc (Catterick)." (42):  https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1972/1972-h/1972-h.htm

Or, there again: "XIII Cair Caratauc     f. Carrog, or Carroc, Cardiganshire; Catterick, Yorkshire (Cataractonium); Caer Caradoc, Knighton, Shropshire; Caer Caradoc, Church Stretton, Shropshire.".  So we just added a Cardiganshire site to our growing list of possibilities (43):

http://www.roman-britain.co.uk/classical-references/nennius-historia-brittonum/

So Old Sarum or Amesbury?  You take your choice or reject both.  As Bromwich, the Reverend Gunn and Nash Ford all point out, there are other (much better) candidate sites for a Caer Caradoc, notably:

 

http://www.longmynd.org/?page_id=294   

This site is near Church Stretton, Shropshire  SO477953.  Rachel Bromwich reviews a number of possible Caer Caradoc sites: this one at Church Stretton, Breddin (Montgomeryshire) SJ294143 (44) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breidden_Hill , several southern sites and a northern site, Dumbarton (See Bromwich, op. cit.).  To these can be (possibly) added the candidates of Clun/Knighton - see Chapel Lawn  SO310758 , (45): http://www.roman-britain.co.uk/places/caer_caradoc_knighton/, Mynydd-y-Gaer, by St Peter-super-Montem, "marked on old maps as Caer Caradog" SS991853 (46) https://dogfuriendly.com/dog-walks/st-peter-super-montem-church/ , near Cerrigydrudion SH96824792 , North Wales (zoom out top left) (47)  https://coflein.gov.uk/en/site/303453/ and Gaer Cop, Sellack, Herefordshire (reviewed above) SO537252  - Caradoc Court (48) https://www.bosci.net/LOWV/LOWV%20projects%20Caradoc%20Court%20Farm.htm .

The Reverend Gunn points to Clun:  "The true Caer Caradoc, which, if not the royal seat of Caractacus, seems to have been his fortress during the wars with the Romans, was in Shropshire, two miles south of Clun, and three from Coxal, (a hamlet to the parish of Brampton Bryant). (Munim. Antiq. vol. i. p. 23. Camden, Shropshire, p. 551.) There is another fortress, distinguished by the name of Caer Caradoc ... Longnor, in Shropshire. (Munim. Antiq. vol. i. p. 22.)"

Take your pick.  And the point remains: whether Old Sarum, Amesbury or one of the above, none are "at" (drafty) Stonehenge.

 

The problem with Caer Worgorn

So "Old Sarum" is not exactly set in stone, as it were, as Caer Caradoc.  What of Bangor-on-Dee as "Mangor" or Llantwit?  

Now I note here Michell's sometime "by" Llantwit Major. But was there ever any actual monastery there (or thereabouts) - noting Eurgain the Virgin's Caer Mead/Worgan association, the Cor Tewdws of the Emperor Theodosius, and Illtyd/Illtud/Iltutus? 

Firstly Eigen/St. Eurgain the Virgin of the 1st century AD.  Pure Iolo invention.  However, Chris Barber tells of a 4th century Eurgain associated with Caer Worgan (by Caer Mead/Medd)  OS Grid: SS958699  (49):

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mT2GDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT61&lpg=PT61&dq=%22St+Eurgain%22++%22worgan%22&source=bl&ots=4d1sHp0oDy&sig=ACfU3U30SZh3tWC8L9IIobbyoQQXnKnIXA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn5bvw4636AhVVilwKHbuzD8UQ6AF6BAgEEAM#v=onepage&q=%22St%20Eurgain%22%20%20%22worgan%22&f=false

A nicety is that the site sits on the "virgin" latitude shared with Avebury, Lat. 360/7, parthenos.  Secondly, more Iolo nonsense:  Cor Tewdws (50): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B4r_Tewdws  and (51)   https://wikimili.com/en/C%C3%B4r_Tewdws

But there was a real and important seat of learning established in Llantwit itself - that of St, Illtyd (47): http://www.saintsandstones.net/saints-llantwitmajor-journey.htm and (52)   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illtud 

We have seen elsewhere that nearby Nash Manor has been associated with a possible monastery (53):

https://www.geoffss.net/the-circle-of-the-perpetual-choirs-of-britain  Scroll down to Nash Manor.  Other than Iolo. no-one suggests the St. Illtyd college had 2400 available souls.  Bangor Iscoed, on the other hand, perhaps did.

Perhaps John Michell, I and many others should have usefully considered a simple timeline:?

 

Others have looked at paths trod above:

TRANSACTIONS OF THE HONOURABLE SOCIETY OF CYMMRODORION, 1948, pp. 500-503, My thanks to NLW (54)

https://cylchgronau.llyfrgell.cymru/view/1386666/1413524/308#?xywh=179%2C2056%2C1567%2C1034

"In the Iolo MSS, there are frequent references to a saint Eigen (also called Eurgen, Eurgain), daughter of Caradog, and wife of a certain Sallawg or Sarllawc, who is described as the lord of Sarllawc. The editors identify this Caer Sarllawc with Old Sarum near Salisbury (Iolo MSS., p.7, 115.135,149, 219). In Spurrell's Welsh-English Dictionary, edited by J. Bodfan Anwyl, 1918, p. 376, we find Caer Sallog identified with Salisbury (It is used in this sense in Triad , iii, 60, in the Myvyrian Archaiology). The authority for this identification seems to go back to certain versions of Brut y Brehinedd, and the same MSS. seem to be the connection of Eigen with Caer Sallog.

The origins of these fictions may be traced as follows:-

In Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae (IX, 12) we find a list of princes present at Arthur's coronation. The text of Trinity College Cambridge MS., 1125 (early fourteenth century) reads (Edmond Faral , La Legends arthurienne, 1926, vol. 3, pp. 243-4.) 

1. 1. 1. Jugein ex Legecestria … Galluc Salisberiensis. These names occur in the same order in the “Dingestow” text of the Brut y Brehinedd as follows:

      2. Ewein o Gaer Lleon … Guallavc o Salsbri (my note - BRUT DINGESTOW - note Caerleon) ed. Henry Lewis, p. 158) and similarly in the Red Book of Hergest : Owein o gaer lleon … Gwallawc ap lleenawc salsbri ( Red Book Bruts, p.100)

However, there appears to be an early Welsh version in older orthography in which the two

names occurred consecutively thus :

             c. Eurgein o gaer lleon, guallauc o salesberi

The next stage was the accidental omission of the word lleon thus :                                                                                       d. Eurgain o gaer guallauc o salesburi

This did not make sense, so the next copyist wrote:

             e. Eurgein o gaer vallauc neu salesburi

This was the immediate origin of the text in Cotton MS., Cleopatra, B. v. fo. 83 v.

(ed. J. J. Parry. p. 168) :

              f. ywein o gaer vallawc, neu ssalysburi o ieith arall

and similarly in Jesus College MS. 8 (my note - is this really Jesus College MS. 28 that is meant? - Owein o gawr vallawc ac o h-nw aerall Sals-brie - my attempt at transcribing from the original) (formerly LXI), see Acton Griscom : The “Historia Regum Britanniae” of Geoffrey of Monmouth, p. 453. However there seems to have version derived from 5 (my note = option e, above) in which the early form Eugein or Eugen was retained, but in which the v of vallauc was written as an f. We may suppose a reading such as : -

               g. eugen o gaer fallauc neu salesbri

This was misread taking the f to be S with the following result ... 

               h. eigen o gaer sallawg neu salesburi

The last step was aided by the fact that there is a place called Caer Sallawg, known traditionally, as is shown by the occurrence of kaer sallauc in the Black Book of Carmarthen (W. F. Skene, Four Ancient Books of Wales, II, p. 23). There seems to be no reason to suppose, however, that this Caer Sallog was Salisbury, and it seems most probable that the identification is due to a series of mistakes as listed above. At the same time it is seen how Eigen came to be connected with Caer Sallog,"

 

You will notice the Eurgain here post-dates the British-Judeo-Christian supposed daughter of Caradoc by 100s of years - and would appear to be a man. Time-travelling, gender-fluid, virgin-mother-of-two ...

 

I identify three MSS. "strands" in the above (see Appendix 1 for the details, links and tabulations)

(Note: Iolo MSS - Myvyrian.  Extremely iffy)?

1. The HISTORIA REGUM BRITANNIAE earls: Jugein ex Legecestria etc.  This strand is fairly stable (apart from the Vulgate two Salisbury's v the Variant one).  It is also the oldest listing. Is Jugein (earl 5 HISTORIA) the right earl for our Eurgain - Schultz, 1854, GOTTFRIED's VON MONMOUTH HISTORIA ..." writes of "Urgennius of Bath" (9, 12) (earl 9) (link below)?  Well, Leicester is a place lost in some BRUTS, so perhaps ...

2. The "Caerleon" BRUTS: Ewein o Gaer Lleon … Guallavc o Salsbri (above - Dingestow etc.),  It is by no means clear what Caerleon stands for in the Caerleon BRUTS (but it has replaced the Chester of the HISTORIA).  Also, it seems that if Usk is meant in the BRUTS then Usk is stated.  Caerleon Isca (on Usk) is normally mentioned as a prelateship in the HISTORIA, not an earldom, with Dubricus named as archbishop.  However, Caerleon on Dee (Deva) is also a "City of the Legions" just like the Usk Caerleon, and just to complicate things further, Chester can be Legecester, which last can also, in turn, be Leicester) (51): https://www.sarahwoodbury.com/the-history-of-chester/  See also (55) https://faculty.arts.ubc.ca/sechard/hrb_leir.htm

3. the Non-Caerleon BRUTS (N-C) - PENIARTH 21 dates to be contemporary to the Trinity College start text above but carries "wallawc" (which is possibly what remains the person Gwallawc/Guallauc above without the G) and there's no Caerleon or Chester. This matches up to the Cotton Cleos and Jesus College MS. 28.  That suggests 2 distinct BRUT traditions/threads had possibly developed by the early C14th - if not before.  By possibly AD 1300-50 there was a BRUT - Peniarth 21 - which carried no Caerleon/Chester (or Leicester).  Was there an earlier one before it?

These are the main points of interest,  the middle earls, which are just the same in N-C BRUT TYSILIO:

Now those two lines of people and places above actually represent what's left of four HISTORIA earls and four earldoms.  Gynvarch, for example, is associated with Canterbury elsewhere as Owein is with Leicester.  But Leicester's gone.  Cursalem is (HISTORIA) normally Chester  - but never in the BRUTs by that name.  And its Caerleon replacement?  Vanished.  Cursalem is now (presumably) Canterbury and Owein has relocated to a site explicitly identified as Salisbury - and remarkably similar to Galluc (of Salisbury) - pretty much as suggested above in Transactions.  It's like someone spilled ink on a page and they just salvaged what they could!  Later - in one of the supplying texts for the above - I read of "ywein o gaer lleon. a gwynwas o gaer geint. ymblaen y bedwared y rodet vrien rac vadon. a gwrsalem o dorcestyr."  So Owein appears to be variously from the newly arrived "vallauc" in the N-C earl list but from his more traditional Caerleon elsewhere in the same text.  So, again: "Owein o / * /Gaer Leon a lonathal o Gaer We ir; ac yr petwared 30 K^^'^^Vryen Vadon a Chursalem o Gaer Geint (56)  https://digital.nls.uk/early-gaelic-book-collections/archive/79824267?mode=transcription

Cursalem sure gets about a bit - Leicester, Dorchester, Canterbury, and Ionathal's gone to Warwick/Durham  What, with Owein, above, as both Wallawc and Caerleon, the collars and cuffs of these documents simply don't match up.

I have so far failed to identify any document which carries Owein adjacent to Galluc (as suggested above).  But you can see how, in a confused cross-over from a Caerleon BRUT to an N-C BRUT, both Kynuarch, who is the gooseberry in the middle in the Caerleon BRUTS (between Owein and Galluc), and Galluc, himself, being Salisbury-related, stop being earls and start becoming places - as above witnessed.  Galluc to Vallauc/Wallawc doesn't seem that much of a Welsh stretch to me.

 

There are currently 225 known MSS versions of HISTORIA (and then there's quite a few BRUT Y BRENHINEDD etc.) from over quite a substantial period of time.  Robert Caldwell reduces HISTORIA options to two from the lifetime of Geoffrey himself: Vulgate and Variant (57): https://commons.und.edu/unique-manuscript/6/  Robert A. Caldwell, p.8, "On the Order of the Variant and Vulgate Versions of the Historia Regum Britanniae" is the text of a paper read by Dr. Robert Caldwell at a meeting of the Modern Language Association in Madison, Wisconsin, in 1957.  In the Variant, Galluc (who will possibly become Sallawc) is from Silchester or Rochester, not Salisbury (see bottom "Earls").  In the Vulgate versions, he either disappears completely or comes from Winchester or Salisbury in the texts explored (but there is a chance there are yet other texts and possibilities).  A quick rule of thumb seems to be if there are two Earls of Salisbury in an 11-man earl list at Caerleon, it's a Vulgate based version you are looking at.  Below are both together with a number of BRUTS.

BRUT versions are instantly recognisable: no Chester (as such) - and often no eleven earls.  See Dingestow (Caerleon and 10 earls) for example.  The BRUTS I've seen so far fall into two distinct groups:  Caerleon and non-Caerleon.  The former is a bit of a minefield because there are two Caerleons:  Usk and Dee (Chester).  It is only the non-Caerleons currently that concern the above study - let's call them the N-Cs.

The N-Cs also carry no Leicester (Llyr or Legestria) - but then note Legestria can also be Chester.  We can sum up as an N-C = no Caerleon-Chester-Leicester.  Those identified so far include the Peniarths 21 and 23, the two Cotton Cleos, Jesus College 28 and other BRUT TYSILIOs.  Earliest date so far?  Peniarth 21, about AD1300  (Professor Sims-Williams of Aberystwyth) - some 50 years after the Black Book of Caermarthen.

The HISTORIA list is pretty stable so I'll spend no more time on it. 

There are some stable areas in the BRUTS - the first 3 lines and the last can be dropped from concern (Gloucester, Worcester, Salisbury/Shrewsbury and Oxford) - as in the table above.  Jonathal of Dorchester moves around a bit but is always there - so can be ignored, too. In line 4, Kynuarch would seem to be the HISTORIA Canterbury interrupting a line of Marchyds (who have to equate, it would appear, to the Athal in line 5 here and Warwick, line 4, in the HISTORIA).  Canterbury is - at first glance - missing from the Cotton Cleos - as are Caerleon and Leicester.  That brings us to Chester, line 6 in the HISTORIA.  Caerleon replaces Chester in 3 of the 5 BRUTS looked at - but Caerleon is both on Usk and on Dee.  Both were City of the Legions.  So the use of the term is both accurate and potentially misleading without clarification.

Mostyn 117 (late C13th) has no Cursalem/Leicester, the Red Book (late C14th) has no Yryen/Bath, and a version of Iolo also lacks Yryen/Bath (but he's there in the other). The Urgbennis/Urgen of Bath in line 9 HISTORIA is replaced elsewhere by Vyren/Yryen/Urien in line 9 BRUTS.

That just leaves the Cotton Cleos (which match up to Peniarth 21):  two people become places as we drop to just 9 earls.  Guallauc becomes vallauc and Kynuarch/Gynvarch becomes "Gynvarch's City".  In the Cotton Cleos,  Guallauc/Gallabc not only becomes a place (Owein's) - rather than a person - but also (possibly) jumps up the list over Gursalem.  Said Cursalem is of Chester in the HISTORIA but acquires Leicester (see above) instead in the Red Book and Iolo - but, in the N-C Cotton Cleos et al, he acquires "Gynvarch's City" instead of Leicester, this Gynvarch being repeatedly identified elsewhere with Canterbury.  There is no Caerleon or Leicester in the Cotton Cleos.  Since, elsewhere, Galluc is Salisbury in the HISTORIA Vulgate, I assume vallauc is that identity in the Cotton Cleo BRUTS, quite possibly coming from a corruption of the name of the Salisbury earl, Galluc.  Sometimes this place identification of Salisbury is explicit.

An important caveat re. Shrewsbury and Warwick - neither existed much before 900 AD.  This supports the idea (of E K Chambers, THE DATE OF GEOFFREY OF MONMOUTH'S HISTORY pp. 431-436, 1925) that the earl list is based upon C12th AD Norman + earldoms (58): here's a (limited) link - https://www.jstor.org/stable/508703 - I have the whole article available here if jstor can't be fully accessed.

Also note caer weir/wir.  Now this is Durham, normally, but here often identified explicitly as (non-existent) Warwick (see, for example, Peniarth 21).  Also note amwythic is commonly (non-existent) Shrewsbury.

Llanstephan 1 MS. (below) is fascinating:  It's a Caerleon BRUT but the Caerleon is actually given below as Chester (Brynley F. Roberts in Brut y Brenhinedd: Llanstephan MS 1 version - Dublin: Institute for Advanced Studies, 1971), pp. 29-30.) so it fits almost perfectly to the Vulgate HISTORIAS.  The exception here would be Gwallavc of Shrewsbury (for the HISTORIA Salisbury) because it is normally Anarawt who is assigned Shrewsbury (to avoid the Vulgate two Salisbury earls problem). 

I need to identify this (supposedly) earlier  BRUT (of TRANSACTIONS, above): "However, there appears to be an early Welsh version in older orthography in which the two names occurred consecutively thus : c. Eurgein o gaer lleon, guallauc o salesberi".  My worry is that it does not exist - otherwise why the lack of a source?   So far I have no N-C before Peniarth 21 (which some date to late C13th AD - but others to later).  Apart the odd missing earl, the N-C Bruts are remarkably consistent (suggesting a common source - which, at the moment - appears to be Peniarth 21).  No evidence exists of the TRANSACTIONS-type gradual progression other than the unprovenanced conjectures therein.  There is also currently no evidence of a wallawc/vallauc that predates the BLACK BOOK OF CAERMARTHEN's sallauc, so it is possible sallauc was subsequently conflated with the wallawc/vallauc/Salisbury of the N-C BRUTS (leading to Caer Sallog et al), as suggested in TRANSACTIONS, but did not inform the N-C BRUTS themselves. Not the ones I've seen, anyway. 

So we have a 50 year gap at least, at the moment, between the BLACK BOOK's sallauc and Peniarth 21's wallawc (details below in Appendix 1).  But Peniarth 21 is a copy of something earlier.  An eminent source (details below) links the text to Llanstephan 1 - but that's a Caerleon BRUT.  Do other intermediate texts transition the one to the other?  Do any of them - if there were/are any - carry the textual wallawc corruption ... and when?  Our source - an emeritus professor:

"Patrick Sims-Williams suggests that the lost archetype of P21 and P23 (my note - Peniarth) might date back at least to the mid-thirteenth century/" (note 11)

BRUT Y BREHINEDD - Katherine Himsworth, p. 96

Arthur in the Celtic Languages: The Arthurian Legend in Celtic Literatures IX... edited by Ceridwen Lloyd-Morgan, Erich Poppe 2019 (59)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=w-yVDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=%22Patrick+Sims-Williams+suggests+that+the+lost+archetype%22&source=bl&ots=7akpvlMEUE&sig=ACfU3U2oXU9QpBziLz-yQitC1zsqzHlQkQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjS6eHq-J36AhWYEMAKHX7SDpMQ6AF6BAgEEAM#v=onepage&q=%22Patrick%20Sims-Williams%20suggests%20that%20the%20lost%20archetype%22&f=false

 

Strangely, an earlier BRUT from a different BRUT "thread", Dingestow (NLW 5266?), as well as Mostyn 117 and Havod 1, all lack Leicester in common with Peniarth 21 but retain Caerleon.  Could one of them be implicated? Sims-Williams posits a missing BRUT X  (ibid. p. 97).  Whether this idea includes the earl lists I cannot say.

 

And my view (apart from the suggested TRANSACTIONS progression)?  Simple: if you want to avoid contaminating the HISTORIA rubbish with Welsh nonsense, then avoid the BRUTS (brutiau/brutieu) like the plague.

 

geoffss@aol.com 

The HISTORIA and BRUT threads are both listed and tabulated below (Appendix 1). 

 

APPENDIX 1 - The Earl (Consul) sites

Firstly, one important point I make elsewhere:  until the early C10th AD Warwick was litl;e more than a farmstead.  Lady Ethelfleda had it fortified -https://www.ourwarwickshire.org.uk/content/article/queen-ethelfleda-and-the-founding-of-warwick The other sites at ;east seem to have some provenance. :  

See Appendix 4 for where Geoffrey possiblygot his "earls" from.

I note Jesus 28 is a BRUT TYSILIO.  As such it is so far unique: every other version I've looked at has no Gloucester  placename in the earl list.

Parry, providing a very useful commentary on source material: notably Dingestow (below), Llanstephan 1 (below) and Peniarth 21 (below) (60)

https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.medievalacademy.org/resource/resmgr/maa_books_online/parry_0027.htm#hd_ma0027_head_002

 

Earl lists - links and extracts - HISTORIA:

(Hammer - 1951) - eleven earls (Variant) (61)

https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.medievalacademy.org/resource/resmgr/maa_books_online/hammer_0057.htm#hd_ma0057_head_028

CH (These capitals refer to HISTORIA versions - see preface) 

consules, Morut, consul Claudiocestriae; Maurud Wigornensis; Anaraud Salesberiensis; Archal Kaerguiensis, quae nunc Warvic appellatur; Iugem ex Leicestria; Kursalem ex Kaicestria; Kynvarch, dux Doroberniae; Galluc Roffensis; Urbgennius ex Badone; Ionathal Dorocestrensis; Doso Ridochensis, id est Oxenefordiae.

DEH 

consules: Morwid, consul Claudiocestriae; Mauron Wigorniensis; Anaraud Salesberiensis;  Arthgal Kaercargueirensis, quae nunc Warwic appellatur; Lugem ex Leicestria; Cursalem ex Kaicestria;

COTTON TITUS (VULGATE)

E K Chambers - THE DATE OF GEOFFREY OF MONMOUTH'S HISTORY, 1925,  COTTON TITUS, p. 431 - 11 consuls

The Review of English Studies, Vol. 1, No. 4 - f Cotton MS. Titus, c. xvii. f. 34V, circa 1160 AD: Vulgate (62a and 62b).  This is a very early text given it addresses two seemingly living people: Robert, Earl of Gloucester (d. 1147) and King Stephen (d. 1154) (63): https://www.jstor.org/stable/508703

Consuls: "Morvid Claudiocestria (Gloucester), Mavron Gwigornensis (of Worcester), Anarauth Salesberiensis (of Salisbury), Artgualcar Cargueitensis (of Warwick), Jugein Legecestria (Leicester), Cursalem Kaicestria (Chester), Galluc Salesberensis (Salisbury), Kinmarch Dorobernia (Canterbury), Urbgenius ex Badone (from Bath), Jonathal  Dorocestensis (of Dorchester), Boso Ridochensis (of Oxford).

Evans trans.: Vulgate "Morvid, Earl of Gloucester; Mauron of Winchester; Anaraut of Salisbury; Arthgal of Carguet, that is also called Warguit; Jugein from Leicester; Cursal from Caistor; Kimmare, Duke of Dorobernia; Galluc of Salisbury; Urgen from Bath; Jonathal of Dorchester; Boso of Ridoc, that is Oxford."  Trans. Evans, 1904: (64a) https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/gem/gem10.htm (9-12)

Thompson trans. (Trans., Thompson, 1718, revised Giles, 1842, p. 162). Vulgate : "Morvid, consul of Gloucester; Mauron, of Worcester; Aranaut, of Salisbury; Arthggal, of Cargueit or Warguit; Jugein, of Legecester; Cursalen, of Kaicester; Kinmare, duke of Dorobernia; Galluc, of Salisbury; Urgennis, of Bath; Jonathal of Dorchester, Boso of Oxford: (64b) History of the Kings of Britain - York University

https://www.yorku.ca › inpar › geoffrey_thompson PDF by A Thompson — Geoffrey of Monmouth

 

Earl lists - links and extracts - CAERLEON BRUTS:

Llanstephan 1 BRUT, C13th AD, second 1/4 (so a very early welsh version) - 11 earls (65):

https://pure.aber.ac.uk/portal/files/152202/llanstephan1.doc t. 161

Morvd yarll Kaer Gloew; Mevryc o Kayr Wyraghon; Anaravt o Salesbry; Arthal o Warrwyc; Oweyn o Kaer Lleon; Cvrsalem o Kaer Llyr; Kynvarch yarll Kaer Keynt; Gwallavc vap Llyennavc o Amwythyc; Vryen o Kaer Badon; Jonathal o Kaer Dor; Bodo o Rytechen

Morvd earl of Gloucester: Meurig earl of Worcester; Anaravt of Salisbury; Arthal of Warwick; Oweyn of Chester; Cvrsalem of Leicester; Kynvarch earl of Canterbury; Gwallavc son of Llyennavc of Shrewsbury: Urien of Bath: Jonathal of Dorcester; Bodo of Oxford

Dingestow 10 earls (no Cursalem of Leicester/ Arthgal replaced by Marchrut): 

Morud, Gloucester; Mor, Worcester; Anarawt, Shrewsbury;  Marchrut, Warwick/Durham; Ewein, Caerleon; Kynuarch, Canterbury; Guallawc, Salisbury; Urien, Bath; Jonatal, Dorchester; Boso, Oxford.

(email to me from NLW).

I note the NLW-provided DINGESTOW list (and my thanks) was in the order they took it from the Henry Lewis edition (see TRANSACTIONS) and not as I present it above.

MOSTYN 117 (late C13th) BRUT (p.208)   10 earls: (No Cursalem. No Leicester) (66)

http://www.rhyddiaithganoloesol.caerdydd.ac.uk/en/ms-home.php?ms=NLW3036

Morud iarll kaer loyỽ. Mor iarll kaer ỽyragon. Anaraỽt o amỽythic. Marchrut o gaer weir. yr hon a elwir weithon warwic. Ywein o gaer lleon. kynuarch o gaer geint.  Guallaỽc o salsburi. Vryen o gaer vadon. Jonathal o dorcestyr. Boso o ryt ychen.

"Morud Gloucester, Mor Worcester. Anaraut Salisbury, Marchrut Warwick, Ywein Caerleon, Kynuarch Canterbury (Kaer geint), Guallauc Salisbury, Vryen Bath, Jonathal Dorchester Boso Oxford." 

The earl names on MOSTYN 117 are the same as DINGESTOW as are the place names.

Red Book: 10 earls (67)

 https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=CAE6AQAAIAAJ&pg=GBS.PA200&hl=en_GB

Mozud iarſl kaer loyo . Meuruc ogaer wyragon . Jnaralt o ambythic , Kynuarch iarll kaer geint . Arthal o warwic . Owein o gaer leon . Jonathal ogaer idor . Curſalem o gaer lyr . Gallabc ap Teenaoc o ſalſbzi . Boſo ozyt ychen

The Red Book is given elsewhere as Jesus College III, “written with few exceptions during the last quarter of the xivth, and the first quarter of the xvth centuries”. It is quite possibly a copy of something earlier. 

Y MYVYR. LIST 1  11 earls: Morud of Gloucester, Meuric/Mor of Worcester, Anarawt of Salisbury*. Marchyd of Warwick. Owein of Caerleon/Chester, Gursalem of Leicester, Kynvarch of Kent (Canterbury). Gwallauc of Salisbury, Yryen of Bath, Ionathal of Dorchester, Bodo/Boffo of Oxford. (footnote 321). (68)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wB5nAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA320&lpg=PA320&dq=%22Aelwyn%22+brut&source=bl&ots=vCts_bJ-0J&sig=ACfU3U18UZz6Fhkco5e9PbcYpH2USMa3rQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjKpNuP-5j6AhUOgFwKHZyoCyQQ6AF6BAgcEAM#v=onepage&q=%22Aelwyn%22%20brut&f=false

The Myvyrian Archaiology of Wales Collected Out of Ancient Manuscripts: Prose edited by Owen Jones, Iolo Morganwg, William Owen Pughe, 1801.  See also below.

MOSTYN 16 : BRUT 112v-113r 10 earls non N-C, C13-14th (69)

http://www.rhyddiaithganoloesol.caerdydd.ac.uk/en/ms-page.php?ms=NLW3035&page=113r

Morud iarỻ kaer loy. Meuruc o gaer waragon. anaraỽt o| amỽythic. kynuarch jarỻ kaer geint. arthalo|warwic Owein o gaer ỻeon.  Jonathal o gaer idor. Cursalem o| gaer lyr. Gaỻac ap ỻeenaỽc o salsburi Boso o| ryt ychen

HAVOD 1 : BRUT 83r non N-C (70)

http://www.rhyddiaithganoloesol.caerdydd.ac.uk/en/ms-page.php?ms=Crd1362&page=83r&srch=

morud iarll kaer loy. Mor iarll kaer wrangon. amaraỽo a·mỽythic. Marthrut o gaer weir. yr hon a|elwir warwic. ywein o gaer lleon. kynuarch o gaer geint. Gallac o salysberi. vryen o kaer vadon. Jonathan o dorgestyr. bosso o ryt ychen.

 

Earl lists - links and extracts - N-C BRUTS:

Peniarth 21 (?1330-40) 9 earls N-N BRUT: (71)

http://www.rhyddiaithganoloesol.caerdydd.ac.uk/en/ms-page.php?ms=Pen21&page=24r&srch=

"morvd yarll kaer loew. A mor yarll kaer wrangon. Ac anarawt o amwythic. A Marchvd o|gaer wir y|dinas a|elwir yr awr honn gwae verwic. Ywein o gaer wallawc.  Grvsalem o gaer gynvarch. Vryen o gaer vadon. Ionathal o dorstestra. boso o|ryt ychen."

Cotton Cleopatra, Parry 164B Print Edition p, 168 - just 9 earls N-C BRUT

(link - see below)

"And then there came Morud Earl of Gloucester, and Mor Earl of Worcester, and Anarawt of Shrewsbury, and Marchudd of Durham, and Owen of Vallawc’s City—or Salisbury in the other language—Gursalem of Cynvarch’s City, and Urien of Bath, and Jonathal of Dorchester, and Bosso of Oxford" from

"Ac yno y doeth Morud iarll caer loew. a Mor iarll caer vrangon. ac anarawt o amwithic. a Marchud o gaer weir. ac ywein o gaer vallawc. nev ssalysburi o ieith arall. Gwrssalem o gaer gynvarch. ac vrien o gaer vadon. A Jonathal o dorcestyr. a bosso o ryt ychen"

Ridogensis, id est Oxinefordiae

Cotton Cleopatra – Parry (BRUT Y BREHINEDD) Earls' list - Print edition page No. 221: (72) N-C BRUT

https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.medievalacademy.org/resource/resmgr/maa_books_online/parry_0027.htm#hd_ma0027_head_009

"morod yarll kaer loew. A mor yarll kaer wrangon. Ac anarawt o amwythic A Marchvd o gaer wir ydinas aelwir yr awr honn gwae verwic Ywein o gaer wallawc. Grvsalem o gaer gynvarch. Vryen o gaer vadon. Jonathal o dorstestr a boso oryt ychen"

"The Cotton Cleopatra are from BRUT Y BRENHINEDD, and arguably date to post the Edwardian conquest of Wales" (circa 1283) (73)  https://scholarworks.uark.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=3755&context=etd

Or later.  The Cotton Cleos tie to PENIARTH 21 and Jesus College 28.

JESUS COLLEGE 28 p. 144 (74) N-C BRUT (a BRUT TYSILIO)

https://digital.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/objects/d5ab9ab2-97ce-4379-b2e1-6794b3dd95d5/surfaces/5f4451b5-d225-44ba-986c-828222ddd782/

(Suggested Morydd Gloucester; Mor Worcester; Anarawt Shrewsbury; Madoc Warwick/Durham; Owain vallawc ... Salisbury; Gwrfalon  ... Gynvarch (?Canterbury); Yrion Bath; Bofo Oxford).

This is very similar to the 7-earl BRUT TYSILIO p.151-152 N-C (75):

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=Mso_AAAAcAAJ&pg=GBS.PA150&hl=en_GB

Morydd, Worcester (no Mor or Gloucester); Anarawd, Shrewsbury; Madoc, Warwick/Durham; Owen Caer-Wallawc ... Salisbury; Gwrsalem, Caer Cynvarch, Urien, Bath; Bosso, Oxford.

and to

PENIARTH 23c - late C15th-early C16th N-C, 9 earls, p. 173 (76):

Mozud, Gloucester; Mor, Worcester, Aranawd, Shrewsbury; Morthud, Warwick; Ywein, Wallawc; Cursalem, Gynbarth; Urien, Bath; Jonathal, Dorchester; Boffo, Oxford.

https://www.library.wales/discover/digital-gallery/manuscripts/the-middle-ages/history-of-the-kings#?c=&m=&s=&cv=172&xywh=22%2C330%2C2278%2C1938

Some more related docs.

PENIARTH 19 : BRUT 84r pp381-2 non N-C - a confusing list.  From what I can make out - 8-9 earls (77):

http://www.rhyddiaithganoloesol.caerdydd.ac.uk/en/ms-page.php?ms=Pen19&page=84r&srch=

Vorud, Gloucester; Kimryt, "Lleg o wyr" (my note - Legecester?); Myna-d, "bydina- y wyr" ;  Owein, Caerleon, Chursalem, Canterbury; Jonathal, Warwick/Durham; Vryen, Bath, Boso, Oxford.

There is also mention of Kynvarch and Kynuarch.

HARLEY 225 f. 59r-v - 10 Earls (No Galluc of anywhere) 1175-1200.  Use the "portal" provided (78):

https://iiif.biblissima.fr/collections/manifest/bdeac693aacbfb8b067ecf6d967f6a8b11645ab8

Y MYVYR. 1, 2 and 3 - pp. 320-21 (1801) (op. cit.) (79)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wB5nAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA320&lpg=PA320&dq=%22Aelwyn%22+brut&source=bl&ots=vCts_bJ-0J&sig=ACfU3U18UZz6Fhkco5e9PbcYpH2USMa3rQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjKpNuP-5j6AhUOgFwKHZyoCyQQ6AF6BAgcEAM#v=onepage&q=%22Aelwyn%22%20brut&f=false

List 1 is carried above.  It's another of the three given lists that's the eye-opener - ll Earls: Morud, Gloucester; Meuric or Mor of Worcester; Anaravt of Shrewsbury or Salisbury; Marchyd of Warwick/Durham; ?Aelwyn Gvenyrvic? or Arthal of Warwick; Owein of (either) Caer wallavc or Caerleon, Cursalem of Caer Gynvarch or Eurfalem of Leicester; Kynvarch (see Gynvarch) of Canterbury, Gwallavc (see wallavc) of Shrewsbury; Ionathal of Dorchester; Fofo or Bodo of Oxford.

That's a combination of a cut Caerleon BRUT (Bath is missing) with an N-C BRUT. Version 1 on the table beloe.

And above it, on the same page, N-C BRUT.  Moryd, Gloucester; Mor, Worcester; Anaravd, Salisbury; Madoc, Warwick/Durham, Owain, Vallawc/Salisbury, Gwrffalen, Gynvarch, Yrien, Bath, Boffo, Oxford.  Version 3 on the table below (to compare with Jesus College 28 N-C).

No Caerleon, Dorchester or Leicester.

Iolo Version 2 on the table below -List 1, p. 321, footnote:

So - given the last two texts  - Iolo w3ould seem to have drawn upon quite a number of sources. with version 1, itself,seeming to be quite a composite - witness the Brut Caerlron doubled with the place Caerwallavc (who was Galluc of Salisbury in the earliest Vulgate versions), Aeiwyn tn Gwenyrvic (a place not seen elsewhere) would seem to be a version of Owen and there are also the Gwallavc/Wallace and Gynvarch/Kynvarch double billings.  At heart, it's a both a Variant/Caerleon Brut mash-up, sans Bath and conflated with N-C Bruts.

 

WACE c. 1155 ROMAN De BRUT V. II pp.97-98.  Ed. Frere E., 1833 (Vulgate).

The list is the editor's but there are others in the notes and main text.  One notable entry is "Jurgint of Herrefort" p. 97 footnote (80) - see Hereford also on the PROSE BRUT CHRONICLE.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Wz46AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=Juligemus&source=bl&ots=djFmz5SJwT&sig=ACfU3U0_-qdEyuESofbJ11s-EeDv4PF3hw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjBrs3Txd_5AhWIaMAKHak3C40Q6AF6BAgDEAM#v=onepage&q=Juligemus&f=false

LAYAMON'S BRUT, p. 634, Variant-ish, British Museum Cotton Caligula A.IX, circa 1190-1215 AD (81).

Based on Wace, above:

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/cme/LayCal/1:122?rgn=div1;view=fulltext

Cador eorl of Cornwale. þa þe king luuede. Moruið of Glouchæstre; Maurin of Winchastre. Gurguint eorl of Herford; and Beof eorl of Oxeuord.  Gursal þe balde; from Baðe þer com ride.  Vrgent of Chastre; Ionatus of Dorchestre.  Ærnald of Salesburi; and Kinmarc of Cantuareburi.  Balien of Silechæstre; Wigein of Leirchæstre.  Argal eorl of Warwic;

13 earls again, including Hereford.  But no Galluc.  Earls given as (82):

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/14305/pg14305.html

Cador, Earl of Cornwall, whom the king loved; Morvith of Gloucester; Maurm (? my note) of Winchester; Gurguint, Earl of Hereford, and Beof, Earl of Oxford; Cursal the bold, from Bath there came riding; Urgent of Chester; Jonathas of Dorchester; Arnalf of Salisbury, and Kinmare of Canterbury; Bahen (?) of Silchester; Wigen of Leicester; Argal, Earl of Warwick,

Of interest here perhaps, is an 1847 Layamon's BRUT (based on Wace) translated battle order (83): Beof, Oxford; Gerin, Chester; Wigein, Leicester; Jonatlias, Dorchester; Cursaleyn, Chester; Urgein, Bath.

https://archive.org/stream/layamonsbrutorch03layauoft/layamonsbrutorch03layauoft_djvu.txt

86-87 Layamon's BRUT v.27253-98, MS COTTON CALIGUA A ix, MS COTTON OTHO C xiii

PROSE BRUT CHRONICLES – p. 397. - 8425  ML MAXWELL, 1995

THE ANGLO-NORMAN PROSE ‘BRUT’:
AN EDITION OF BRITISH LIBRARY MS COTTON CLEOPATRA D.ii (84)

file:///C:/Users/DELL/Downloads/DISSERT.pdf

Apparently the PROSE BRUT CHRONICLES start circa 1272 (after the BLACK BOOK OF CARMARTHEN).  This copy is possibly C14th AD.  The original (French) listing is - 13 earls, pp. 86-87. lines 1905-1915. Variant-ish:  

Cador Counte de Cornewaille, Merwithe Counte de Gloucestre, Mauran Counte de Wyncestre, Guerdoun Counte de Hereford, Boer Counte Doxenford, Vrgeti Counte de Bathe, Cursal Counte de Cestre, Ionas Counte de Dorcestre, Eueral Counte de Salesbury, Kymar Counte de Canterbury, Walothe Counte de Cicestre,
Ingerne Counte de Leycestre, Aral Counte de Warre

Gottfried's von Monmouth HISTORIA ... 1854, Schultz (85)

Obviously a well sourced trawl through texts.  A more readable version here (on the link):

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JIhpAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA389&lpg=PA389&dq=llyennavc&source=bl&ots=WGr7pAvIjL&sig=ACfU3U1J0cGHKMqXJ5l8HiWDXbA9VkzMxw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi8v9GY1dz5AhWwQEEAHenoB40Q6AF6BAgCEAM#v=onepage&q=llyennavc&f=false

5. Morvid.] Moryd iarll Caer Loyw, Tys. — Morud iarll lvaer- gloew, Arth. — Morud, li quens de Gloecestre, Br. — Mo- rindus, A s c. 35. Mauron.] Mor iarll Caerrangon, Tys. Meuric neu Mor, iarll Kaerfrangonj Arth. — Rimarec de Cantorbifcre, Br. — Mau- rou Guigorensis, A s c. 36. Anaraut.] Anaravd arghwyd Amwylhic, Tys. — Anaravt o Am- vylhic neu o Salsbri, Arth. — Balduf de Silcestre, Br. — Anaranlus, Asc. 36. Arthgal.] ailh, Bür; gal, fremd. — Madoc o gaer Wair, Tys. Marehyd o Gaerwir, Arth. — Algal de Guivic, Br. — Zwischen Arthgal und Jugein schiebt Arlli. noch den Aelvvyn Ge- nyrvic neu Arlhal • Warwic ein. — Nach einigen Lesearten der Triaden ist er einer der drei vornehmsten Gefangenen der Insel * Brittannien; Andre lesen statt seiner: Mahon, Sohn des-Modron. 37. Jugein ex Legeceslrin.] Owain o gaer Vallawc, Tys. — Ovain o Gaerwallawc neu o Gaer Lleon, Arth. — Juligemus, Asc. — Vigenin de Leirceslre, B r. B7. Cursalem ex Kaiceslriaj Gwrssalen o gaer Gynvarch, Tys. — Gvrsalem o gaer Cynvarch, neu Eursalem o gaer Llyr, Arth. — Cursalemus, Asc. Fehlt, Br. — In Merionelshirc am Fluss I.liw ist ein alles Schloss Garn Kochen, und gegenüber Caer-Kai oder Gai, römischen Ursprungs, wie man aus den dort häufig gefundenen römischen Münzen aus der Zeit des Domitian schliesst. Nach Cam den soll es ein Römer Cajus erbaut haben, was jedoch nur Vermulhung ist. Nach Llwyd, Hist, of Wales, topogr. not. p. ‘238 heisst es Cai-hir ap Gynyr, nach Arthurs Milchbruder, der hier residirt haben soll. 38. Kimmare.] Fehlt, Tys. — Kynvarch iarll Kaer Keim, Arth. — Fehlt, Br. — Kiminare, Asc. S. Villemarque 1. c. p. 39. 38- Galluc Saleberiensis ] Fehlt, Tys. — Gwallavr ap Llyennavc o Amvylhyc, Arth. — Gallucus Salesberiensis, Asc. — Gwal- Iawg map Llenawg kommt im Märchen Geraint ap Erbin vor. In den Triaden ist er mit Dunawd Für und Cynvelyn Drwsgl eine der drei Säulen der Schlacht auf der Insel Brittannien, was dahin zu verstehn ist, dass diese Hauptleute die erfahrensten in Entwerfung der Schlachtordnung, die Lenker der Schlacht, über alle Andre erhaben waren (Tr. 71. Myv. Areh. II, G9.). In Tr. 31. (Myv. Arch. II, 14) ist jedoch statt seiner Urien ap Cynvarch genannt. In Tr. 76 (Myv. Arch. II, (19.) ist er mit Seiyf ap Cynan Garwyn und Afacon, Sohn des Taliesin, einer der drei Grabesfechter (aerfeddavvg) der Insel Brittannienj denn sie rächen ihre Beleidigungen bis an ihr Grab. Unter den Werken der älteren Barden in der Myv. Arch sind mehrere Gedichte ausdrücklich zur Ehre des Gwallawg. In einigen ist der Schauplatz seiner Schlachten benannt, und eins sagt, dass sein Ruf von Caer-Clud bis Caer-Caradawc (d. h. von Dunbarton bis Salisbury) ausgebreilet war. Sein Name kommt auch in Llywarch llen’s Elegie auf Urien von Rheged vor, und er war einer der drei Könige des Nordens, welche sich mit jenem Fürsten ver- einigten, um den Fortschritten der Nachfolger Ida’s zu begegnen (s. Turner, Hist, of Anglo-Sax. III, c. 4.). Im Engly- nion y Beddau wird sein Grab nach Carawc verlegt. Robert von Glocester nennt ihn nach Gottfrieds Vorgang Graf von Salisbury. Dr. Pughe (Cambrian Biography) sagt, er sei Herr des Thals von Shrewsbury gewesen, und Camden confundirt ihn mit dem berühmten Galgacus, der einige Jahrhunderte später lebte (S. San-Marte, Arlhursagc, S. 260, 267.). In den wälschen Stammbäumen ist er ein Sohn der Tywynwedd und Bruder des Caradawc Vreichwras und des Gwyn ap Nudd. S. Villemarque, I. c. p. 51. 38. Urgennius ex Badone j Yrien o gaer Vaddon, Tys. Fehlt, Arth. Br. — Urbgemius, Asc. 39. Jonathal.] Fehlt, Tys. Br. — Jonathal o gaer Dor, Arth. — Dorcesler, wälsch Cair Dauri nach Henr. Huntingd.; Cair Dorin nach Alfred. Bewerlac. 39. Boso Ridocensis.] Bosso iarll Rydychen, Tys. — Boso neu Bodo o Rydychen, Arth. — Bollb, Asc. 40. consules.}

Note: Chambers (op. cit.) reviews quite a few HISTORIA minor variations and BRUTS.  Amongst them is FAIRFAX MS which resembles Harley, above) except it lacks a Boso but keeps Oxford (now identified with Dorchester).  A number of the BRUT (Gurguint of) Hereford entries are mentioned.  Also CONGE (acute accented) 27 which is a very early copy of Wace (copy of relevant text requested from the Bibliotheque du Roi, as was).

Of interest is the view that the 2 N-Cs PENIARTH 21 and 23 share a possible common precursor, moving a the wallawc source nearer to the BLACK BOOK in dating.  I presume (correctly, thanks to Professor Sims-Williams) the Peniarth 25 reference below to be a typo (for 23):

"The title, Liber Coronacionis Britanorum, is taken from the colophon of Peniarth 23, and now used as a ‘convenient label’ (vol. ii, p. 1) for the version it represents. It is closely related to MS Peniarth 21, copied          nc. 1300. The text of both copies reveals northern features and, although Pen. 25 is not a direct descendant of Peniarth 21, careful analysis of variants shows that they both derive from a common ancestor." (86)

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/zcph-2018-650115/pdf

Professor Sims-Williams kindly points me at Llanstephan 1 as an origin text for at least some of the two Peniarths above, a connection he explores in Vol. 2 of his Liber Coronacionis Britanorum.  

 

Appendix 3

N1: these were not sourced from any of the "Major MSS" triad collections as carried here (87):   https://www.academia.edu/12616818/Comprehensive_Chart_of_the_Welsh_Triads.               
*Rachel Bromwich has versions of the Perpetual Choir triad threesomes - with commentary -  in her TRIOEDD YNYS PRYDEIN (noting details vary in different editions).  The above flowchart is largely based upon these.

PDF download available Edition 4, pp. 232-3, 2014 (88): https://dokumen.pub/qdownload/trioedd-ynys-prydein-the-triads-of-the-island-of-britain-1783161450-9781783161454.html 

N2: the assumption made here and elsewhere by me et al that Avalon and Avallach can be safely taken to be Glastonbury-related.  But can they?  See here (89):  http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/arthur/avalon.html

Apparently, some (if not all) of this Glastonbury nomenclature may have been the invention of Henry of Blois, and we should be placing the Widrin/Wytrin elsewhere - in this case at Burgh Island (90):  https://geoffreyofmonmouth.com/geoffrey-of-monmouth-foreword/

Afallach (our Afallark above aka Avallach/Evelake/Avallo et al) will emerge in Avalonian/Arthurian Grail legend as the double of the Grail Fisher king/King of Sarras.  Or - there again - it could be Afallach (Rhosesmor, Flintshire). This is an absolutely fascinating read (more near the very bottom, including a map) (91):   https://chesterwalls.info/melkinsprophecy/melkin3.html

N3 ... just saw this (late C19th AD): "There are three perpetual Choirs of the Isle of Britain, namely, Great Bangor in the forest of Maelor, Caer-Salog, and the Crystal Isle of Avallon ..." in which the last refers to Glass Isle, Ynys Witrin (as in vitrine - made of glass) (92):  https://journals.library.wales/search?lang%5B0%5D=en&page=1099 Vol IV, 1909-10.  

Afal also gets translated as (Isle of) Apples.  

N4:  Stonehenge as a Perpetual Choir?  From when I first got interested in this I have thought how frightfully cold and wet it must have sometimes been keeping up a 24/7 chant at those old rocks all year round!  

N5: I make St Peter super Montem about 4 miles north of Nash Manor.

N6: Was there actually ever a church establishment in the Amesbury area able to sustain a Perpetual Choir?  There was a priory established there late C10th AD and, before that, a legend (that some carry as fact) of a convent Queen Guinevere could avail herself of.  The number 300 has been associated with the area - hardly the 2400 needed for 100 an hour in perpetual rotation!

N7:  John Michell first raised the idea of Perpetual Choirs as a decagon in his CITY OF REVELATION, 1972, and later, in DIMENSIONS OF PARADISE et al. He cited "Glastonbury, the choir of Ambrosius or Stonehenge and Llan Illtud Vawr .... by Llantwit Major ... ". He also knew that there was (about) a 3 degree skew northwards from Glastonbury to Stonehenge and he cited a "temple" at Goring, a meeting place at Croft, Leicestershire, and a "dekagon" pivot" just south of ... Midsummer Hill", naming Whiteleaved Oak.  He refers to numbers like 144, our decagon corner angle, 504 and 3168.  He has a whole chapter about 3168 being the perimeter of the temple. In furlongs (given 22/7), that's this: 63 miles (our radius) is 504 furlongs, 396 miles, our circumference is 3168 furlongs etc.  And these numbers were thought by some (Bonnie Gaunt, for instance) to be "magnificent":  put the Earth in a square, for instance, and the "canonical" sides of the square would be 7920 X 4 = 31680.  Sit the Moon atop the Earth and draw a circle round both and that circle will be (7920 + 2160) X 22/7 = 31680 etc.

The Choir of Ambrosius identification with Stonehenge is explored above. John - bless him! - once told me he was sourced from Iolo. But I don't see how. Sourced c/o Probert's translation, firstly, and people like the Reverend Smithett (who later wrote "near" Stonehenge), secondly, makes more sense as the origin because Iolo never actually made this identification.  And John Michell still had to get to "in/at" from "near".  I read: "Elizabeth O. Gordon, PREHISTORIC LONDON : IT'S MOUNDS AND CIRCLES, 1914,  'attributes the names ‘Caer Ambresbiri’ and ‘Cor Gawr’ to Stonehenge, interpreting the latter as meaning ‘Great Circle.’  It's another excellent read if researching the topic (and another possible source for John Michell).  Gibson's edit of Camden's BRITANNIA, 1722, mentions Leland's Stonehenge Choir Gaure (for the first time!) and Inigo Jones on Merlin (it's worth reading all of pp. 122-125).  There's an easy conflation possible here: the "gor" in Goring* - as in the gor in Bangor (Illtud etc.). Add in Doctor John Smith's identification of Stonehenge in 1771 as "Choir Gawr", echoing architect John Wood's 1747 "Choir Gaur"and Leland's (C16th) Choir Gaure, it becomes easy to see how caer/cor/chor(ea)/choir/(ban)gor/gaur/ gawr etc. could be confused.

* John Michell's threesome had a fourth at Goring (the Temple).  See:  (93):  http://www.goringgaphistory.org.uk/uploads/2/4/4/1/24417872/housing_development_1870-1914.pdf for the history of Goring's Temple (House).

N8:  there have been quite a few proposed Choir sites from various authors over the years.  The latest I have found is from Mike Field: "The actual locations of the so called choirs were St. Asaph*, Bangor, and Valle Crucis Abbey** - all in North Wales (94)":

https://www.megalithic.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=Forum&file=viewtopic&topic=8560&forum=4&start=0

*the monastery of Liancwlwy (St. Asaph) where "prayer was continuous" (95): https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01766a.htm, **Valle Crucis (Llangollen).

As I remember, others include the Irish Bangor, a Scottish site - Whithorn/Rosnat - and Avebury.

And here's food-for-thought, combining sites touched on above:  the Bangor-on-Dee, Afallach (Rhosesmor/Monachlog - monastery) and Caer Caradawg ("Cerrydrudion" ... Cerrigydrudion) threesome, this last, apparently, linked to a monastic site (96):  https://chesterwalls.info/melkinsprophecy/melkin3.html

 

 

N9 - Salisbury Old Sarum

N10 - Vespasian's camp